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Talk:Battle of the Bastards
OTHER NORTHERN HOUSES Just out of sheer curiosity, where do the other Northern Houses fit in to all this? By other Northern Houses I mean the Manderlys, Cerwyns, Dustins and Reeds. I doubt they would remain neutral seeing as the fate of their land is about be decided. I know that in the books the Reeds and Manderlys are loyal to the Starks and the Dustins are loyal to the Boltons. Yes we haven't seen them on the TV show yet and I'm sure they would take a side as I said before, the fate of the North will be decided by this battle. RVC96 (talk) 13:14, June 15, 2016 (UTC)RVC1996 : Probably the classic "show up once the battle is over and claim you were going to support the winning side all along", like what Walder Frey did after the Battle of the Trident. DRAEVAN13 13:26, June 15, 2016 (UTC) I think letters were sent to them all, I agree they'll either turn up during or not at all. Love how outnumbered the Starks are, hopefully this'll change with the addition of 10,000 Knights of the Vale xD (Lukema (talk) 14:17, June 15, 2016 (UTC)) Name At what discussion page was the title agreed upon? "Battle of the Bastards" is the cannon name, and I have yet to see "Second Battle of Winterfell" anywhere except on this wiki. --CrappyScrap (talk) 18:50, June 15, 2016 (UTC) :Since when is Battle of the Bastards the canon* name? It may be the name of the episode, but there's nothing to suggest that the name of the battle itself is that. The current article title is conjectural anyway; until a source states the name of the battle itself is Battle of the Bastards, I believe that the article should remain as the Second Battle of Winterfell. Reddyredcp (talk) 18:58, June 15, 2016 (UTC) ::I believe the episode title is as canon (thanks!) as it gets. But we might as well wait it out and reevaluate on Sunday. --CrappyScrap (talk) 01:20, June 16, 2016 (UTC) :::So it appears you're right! HBO's Game of Thrones Viewer Guide lists it as the Battle of the Bastards - seemingly, the battle itself. For example, look at the character pages of Smalljon Umber and Rickon Stark. Therefore, the episode should probably be moved to "Battle of the Bastards (episode)" and this page to "Battle of the Bastards." Reddyredcp (talk) 06:02, June 20, 2016 (UTC) ::I'm always right :3 --CrappyScrap (talk) 10:11, June 20, 2016 (UTC) ::Battle of the Bastards is the canon name because in the behind the scenes video on the Game of Thrones youtube channel it is called the battlee of the Bastards House Seaworth as a combatant Davos is one guy. If he had an army, that would be one thing. But should House Seaworth really appear in the infobox alongside houses with actual armies? --CrappyScrap (talk) 21:33, June 18, 2016 (UTC) Harald Karstark's fate The Anatomy of a Scene behind the scenes video at 3:09 shows Harald alongside a line of mounted men. Was he in the charge?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 03:14, June 20, 2016 (UTC) RAMSAY Should Ramsay be included in the casualties section? I would say no since he was killed (executed?) after ''the battle, but I'm not sure. So I'm suggesting maybe change that up if you think it makes sense If they had waited half a day before engaging the Boltons ...Wun Wun would still be alive. F**k you, HBO and your budget cuts! --CrappyScrap (talk) 10:41, June 20, 2016 (UTC) Decisive and Pyrrhic Victory Shouldn't this be consider a Pyrrhic Victory as well as a Decisive Victory. Because one of a Pyrrhic Victory is when it results in a great loss(es). Rickon Stark was one of their objectives, and considered to be an heir as Sansa is unaware of that Bran is still alive, but Jon lost a massive amount of soldiers, and Rickon Stark which personnel i'd think be considered a Pyrrhic Victory. Great Loss is just about numbers, but it can also be something like for example; failing one objective such as protecting a city/town/person, or rescuing something.--Made up Character Wiki Admin Jack Jackson Page I ignore 02:09, June 21, 2016 (UTC) :Let's wait a week and see how pyrrhic this victory turns out to be. A pyrrhic victory is not just a costly one, but one that ultimately benefits the "loser" more than the "victor". As the Boltons have disappeared (Sansa saw to that), I'm less sure that's the case here. Let's see how things play out in the season finale. --CrappyScrap (talk) 02:46, June 21, 2016 (UTC) Redirect Someone needs to delete the redirect so that this page can be moved to Battle of the Bastards, the canon name. - 09:35, June 22, 2016 (UTC) Forces How do we know there are 2,000 Vale knights? --CrappyScrap (talk) 14:26, June 22, 2016 (UTC) Lord of House Stark There's an ongoing discussion of the head/lord of House Stark. Here's the thread link: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:47132#16. Add some input, there's a poll too for those who love voting. Admins, there's an edit war, your involvement in the thread is recommended. --Kai200995 (talk) 15:39, June 30, 2016 (UTC) Not part of the War of the Five Kings? House Stark's goal in the War of the Five Kings is make The North Independent and maintain their sovreignty. This means defeating any pro Iron Throne Northern House. This goal is now part of a larger goal, to defeat the White Walkers, but they also know that a Lannister invasion comming from the south is also a danger. Granted House Lannister must now deal with Daenary's, but Jon, Sansa and Bran don't know she's comming. And Daenary's might consider going after House Stark as well, and she's entering the war So in hindsight, this battle is technically part of the War of the Five Kings, as it's House Stark resuming their initial goals at the start. Now they must prepare for the Walkers, but they could have furthur action, such as trying to bring the Riverlands back into the Kingdom of the North, which would also be defiance against the Iron Throne and part of their independence goal. User:Godzillavkk 7/17/16. :You said it yourself - they're ''resuming their initial goal after being defeated the first time. This was a new, internal Northern conflict between two houses who both had rebelled against the crown. Now that the Starks have won, they may once again go to war with the Iron Throne. --Gnortleif (talk) --CrappyScrap 10:10, July 22, 2016 (UTC) :Well, that was just my reason for why I think putting "War of the Five Kings" back in the infobox is a good ide. I'm pleased to see it's back in the box. Godzillavkk 7/22/16 This battle will be treated as part of the War of the Five Kings until proven otherwise by the next novel. No discussion. Further debate has no hope of reaching a definitive conclusion but will only waste finite amounts of writing time and supervision. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:26, July 22, 2016 (UTC) :There was never any concensus on this. Attempts to debate this question (which has a rather obvious answer) at the relevant talk page have repeatedly been met with filibustering. The same is the case with the Faith Militant, which is included as a combatant for reasons that are beyond me. --CrappyScrap 20:51, July 22, 2016 (UTC) Regarding Jon Snow's order that he not be resurrected, I do not recall Melisandre "replying that she has no power to do so," as the article currently states. Rather, she says that she does not serve Jon Snow, but instead the Lord of Light. Specifically, she replies (omitting Jon's interjections), "I'll have to try. I am not your servant, Jon Snow. I serve the Lord of Light. I do what he commands." I suggest deleting "that she has no power to do so; she can only utilize what the Lord has given her," and substituting, "that she does not serve Jon Snow." 08:32, October 2, 2016 (UTC)dy Relief Force ''Relief, as a military term, refers to the breaking of a siege or an encirclement by an outside force.'' from Wikipedia (link ) By this definition, I think House Arryn's involvement, and the arrival of Littlefinger, Sansa, and the Knights of the Vale ought to be labeled as a relief force, just like Tywin and House Tyrell in the Battle of the Blackwater. NotCrazyCarson (talk) 04:48, December 10, 2016 (UTC) WotFK and CBtW? I think that this should be considered part of both The War of the Five Kings and the Conflict Beyond the Wall. Jon Now's assassination set precedent that an event can be part of the CBtW without actually taking place Beyond the Wall, and as Davos tells Lyanna Mormont, this victory is equally important to both wars.Volvlogia (talk) 04:10, December 28, 2016 (UTC) This is not part of the Conflict beyond the Wall.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:45, May 9, 2017 (UTC) Mammoths One of the increasing reasons I suspect that this entire battle is nothing more than a delusional invention of Benioff and Weiss to show off "we can afford 70 live horses in a real cavalry charge!" ...re-reading, I remembered: the wildlings that cross south of the Wall actually took 80 mammoths with them. They had to go around the eastern side of the Wall at Eastwatch because they wouldn't fit through the gate. In the TV battle, they stress that the Bolton army has superior cavalry. And Jon's side only has one giant. Yeah...but even 80 mammoths, not actually trained for war, can hold up pretty well in a fight against horses, making them panic. During Stannis's attack at the Battle of Castle Black, the giants on their mammoths are the only part of the wildling host that manages to put up any meaningful resistance (Stannis had three columns of horse, one got stopped by the giants on mammoths, but the other two made a pincers movement, then surrounded the mammoths and harassed them with arrows until they fled as the battle was lost). So consider: *In the books, Tormund's wildlings have around 80 mammoths at their command. Maybe not war-capable, but just being, you know, a mammoth is useful against enemy cavalry. *They would either bring them to a battle against the Boltons, or leave them behind for some inexplicable reason. *At any battle against the Boltons' cavalry, mamoths would negate much of that advantage. And of course....the snows are so deep by this point that the kind of maneuver warfare we see in the TV show would be absurd. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:44, May 9, 2017 (UTC) Decisive victory?! As much as i like John, this was far from a decisive victory. John barely had any men left. The only reason he won was because of 2 reasons: 1. The knights of the Vale arrived last minute. 2. They had a giant to break the gate. As Ramsay said, both armies were lost. John just had a few more men remaining. This should be changed to pyrrhic victory.